Emma of the naked doula is a mother, instagram phenomenon, artist, and passionate, bold birth educator residing across the pond from us, in England. She uses bright colors, raw imagery and impassioned language to teach her birth philosophy and method. Today, she joins us on the Down to Birth Show to share her secret sauce to your easiest and best birth. She explains five specific strategies that anyone can incorporate into their labor including. We also discuss how birth can be orgasmic and what circumstances exist to even make that possible. This must-listen episode will leave you with important and essential need-to-know tips to help you have your easiest, safest and best birth. Connect with us on Patreon for our exclusive content. Work with Cynthia: Work with Trisha: Please remember we don’t provide medical advice. Speak to your licensed medical provider for all your healthcare matters.
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Emma of the naked doula is a mother, instagram phenomenon, artist, and passionate, bold birth educator residing across the pond from us, in England. She uses bright colors, raw imagery and impassioned language to teach her birth philosophy and method.
Today, she joins us on the Down to Birth Show to share her secret sauce to your easiest and best birth. She explains five specific strategies that anyone can incorporate into their labor including. We also discuss how birth can be orgasmic and what circumstances exist to even make that possible. This must-listen episode will leave you with important and essential need-to-know tips to help you have your easiest, safest and best birth.
Connect with us on Patreon for our exclusive content.
Work with Cynthia:
Work with Trisha:
Please remember we don’t provide medical advice. Speak to your licensed medical provider for all your healthcare matters.
I'm Cynthia Overgard, owner of HypnoBirthing of Connecticut, childbirth advocate and postpartum support specialist. And I'm Trisha Ludwig, certified nurse midwife and international board certified lactation consultant. And this is the Down To Birth Podcast. Childbirth is something we're made to do. But how do we have our safest and most satisfying experience in today's medical culture? Let's dispel the myths and get down to birth.
Hi, everyone, my name is Emma. I'm also known as the naked doula. I'm a HypnoBirthing practitioner, a doula an illustrator and a mother. And I help people all over the world feel confident and informed to have a really good, happy positive birth experience.
So tell us before we officially start, tell us about you and how you developed following you have the work that you do what like what is it about you? Do you think that has drawn people to you if you're totally honest about it? And what is the thing that makes you special and different?
Do you do what I think? First of all, there's a few things I think because when I was pregnant with I was always interested in childbirth and midwifery. And I'd always try I never did my levels never finished them. And I tried to get on access to university courses for Midwifery, in my younger years of it could never continue at due to financial problems that I had throughout my life earlier life. And so I always had this interest at when I fell pregnant with Charlie. All my sort of focus was taken away from my pregnancy and was on my mom who was dealing with cancer at the time, and it was a you know, shoot, she wasn't going to recover. She was sort of she was dying. And when she passed away, I was 26 weeks pregnant. And when she passed away, I just I just I think I just took the grief. And I was like I really need to focus this on this birth and what birth is and you know that in its entirety. And I became like quite obsessed to be honest. And I think that's because of the situation that I was in. So I you know, I delved in I started writing blog because I started talking to people. And it sort of stopped. That's where it started. When I when I had Charlie, and I sort of created the naked doula. And it came from this sort of nakedness and transparency and sort of, you know, this, it was born from grief. Basically, I just really, I was scared. I was scared because I wanted to go out there and just be really brash, and I wanted to be really, myself and I wanted to swear and I wanted to use language that I didn't see anyone else using in the birth world. And I was scared about that. Because I thought I don't know how this is going to be received. You know, this is a very, very sensitive subject for a lot of people. And especially, you know, in the UK, we're really prudish we are like, we hate talking about vaginas and anything like that. So I just I just sort of took the leap and just put it out there and it was very colorful, it was very in your face. It was very you know, as it is now. And I sort of found this talent of taking information, simplifying it and making it really easy digestible for people to understand. How does the graphics I do I do them it's really cool. Yeah, you have a great style.
This is it. This is it. I think I've always been a creative person and to be able to take that into something I'm like so you know, so passionate about and then obviously, you know, as you go out into the birth world, right when you experience these things real time and start working with people feels included. because, you know, I live and breathe every day. I don't do anything else.
You have some captivating style. And we're so happy to have you here today because you have some great techniques to talk about, including something called floppy face floppy fanny. That's right, really interested in sharing with our community, your tips and techniques for easier, faster, safer, more satisfying labor.
Exactly, exactly. And I can't wait to share because I just everything that you know, the naked doula stands for. And what we're talking about today is really about, you know, jumping into it and making it a really fun and enjoyable experience.
That's why you're special. That's why you have this following and niche because you're saying something that women aren't hearing enough. And there are some women who will immediately resonate with that. And they won't even know why. Because they're so stuck in the fear. But they hear what you got. And they're like, wait, but what if, what if, right?
Yeah, just just to touch sorry, just to touch on that as well. I just want to put it out there, which is, you know, I don't know whether, you know, obviously, a lot of people are gonna think this is a bit crazy. But I'm telling you now, my favorite thing is it has to be contractions, it has to be that that labor process and the contractions that are happening to your uterus, because how incredible how actually mind blowing, is that process, you know, and, and they can be really enjoyable. That is my, I'm looking forward to that, and crowning the most, the most in my impending labor. Honestly, I can't even explain to you the excitement, I feel for that, you might actually be the first person that I've ever heard say that. But I completely agree with you. I completely agree with you, that moment of intensity is the brink of the most blissful moment of your life. Right?
When I'm teaching HypnoBirthing, I say something kind of similar, because I believe, especially because of the media, what women have seen depicted in television and movies. I believe that when women have a contraction or a surge, they adopt a mindset of believing their job is to muscle through it. Like just just hold on, hold on, let it happen. It's like no, no, you're you're missing actually what's going on in your body, if you resist it, okay, but now your body says, Alright, let's try this again in a few minutes. Let's try this again, your body is simply trying to move that tissue from the cervix up into the uterus. So if we can have a surge and as as, as daunting as it sounds, or as funny as it sounds, if we can say to ourselves, bring it, bring it because this is this is really how I summarize it for my clients, there isn't a pre destined number of searches that we have to have in order to have our baby. It's not like we have to have 150 surgeries. And if we just get through them, we have our baby, you can have maybe only 40 of them instead because you relax so much. Nevermind my numbers, but you get the point, you can relax so much that right I used to think like bring it I'm gonna go for two centimeters on this one. If you relax, that tissue lifts more easily. So it is actually welcoming the surge, if you understand all that your body is doing is trying to get that tissue out of the way so the baby can come through. So we don't need to muscle through it. We need to relax into it. And we end up with fewer and quicker labor as a result.
Right. Exactly. And do you know what that that's perfect to sort of lead into talking about floppy faced floppy funny actually, because you know, when I when I'm talking about floppy faced, I'll be funny for those who, you know, are listening. In the UK, we we use the word funny, like vagina, we call it a fanny. And this is what I'm referring to when I talk about floppy faced floppy Fanny is a mantra. And it works so perfectly with contractions with the whole of your labor experience. And even when you're birthing your baby, because of that beautiful connection between the jaw and the pelvic floor. And this connection, what a lot of people don't understand this connection starts when you are an embryo this connection starts right from, I think it's like day 15 Wow, day 15 of being an embryo and that connection between those ligaments at the top, right at the top behind, you know, connects to your whole jaw all the way down to your pelvic floor. And the more that you explain it to people and I go into more detail, but the more you explain it the more you can actually implement blocky faced off your fanny into normal daily activities like going to the toilet or having sex, you know with your partner and people are finding it It's more enjoyable and a lot easier because when we understand how to relax, and we release this jaw, we are releasing all the tension our pelvic floor, and we're making space for our uterus to do this beautiful job of contracting, we are allowing our body to open, and it's just, it's just the most incredible, incredible experience. And all from just one simple mantra that we can just try and understand a bit more of. So when I talk about flappy face, I'll be funny is talking about really relaxing this jaw really taking the pressure away from that area, and dropping the shoulders as well. Once we do that, we can really lean into that contraction, and we can really ride with it, and sort of ride this wave that that is what it is, has to be get to the peak of that contraction, which we know is the really shitty part, of course, where you get to that peak, and we think, Oh my God, and most of the time, like you just said, we want to sort of oh my god, just fight against it fight as long as we can to try and just get rid of it. But instead of seeing like that, at that peak, that is such a beautiful time to implement floppy faced floppy Fanny at the most this, because that is the time you're going to dilate the most that is optimal dilation time. And that, for me is just you can influence that surge, you know, you can ride that wave. And when you get to the top, you can open up you can release that jaw, really concentrate on that breathing and focus and allow your body to do what it's made to do. And this is why utilizing floppy face floppy Fanny, during during your searches, is such a beautiful way to dilate so much smoother, and to just really work with your body.
Right, you really want to capitalize on every ounce of energy that your body is exerting in that contraction. And when we resist and we tend to when we tighten, we're not capitalizing on that energy. So how do you instruct people to have a floppy face? I mean, it's in the moment, it's very easy to forget that that's what we need to do. And our natural response because we're feeling discomfort is to get tightened tense. So how do you how do you coach people to make a floppy face, everyone is different. And a lot of the time we don't even realize that we are tensing this jaw and that can really affect us when we are actually in labor itself. So there are daily exercises which I discussed with people that they can do. And one of them is using a comb. Another way to use the comb, which I can come back to, but daily exercises just to help release the tension in the jaw. And using it in our everyday things when we are going to the toilet. You know we we do the same thing. We just pausing trying to force something we're going against the body, we're tightening everything up. So how is our body able to relax and open. So using proper face in situations like on the toilet, when we have been constipated, using proper face when we are being intimate with our partner feel the difference in how that is and you'll soon start to really connect with your pelvic floor. And not just that I have people using it for different things, blood tests, vaginal examinations, you know, if they're having cervical exams, for whatever reason, or sweep, maybe people are, you know, using it for stress and things like that, I ask people to really use that mantra and implement it in their daily life activities. And that way, you know, with HypnoBirthing, like, the more that we can build those connections in our brain, the more it becomes a subconscious, which is such a great way to train train our brain and and exercise it for that moment when we are actually feeling those surges.
And I want to just let everyone understand how important what you're saying is and that this really is something that affects their lives morning noon and night, whether or not they realize it but as you said in the in the poll head, because of the joint of the jaw, that's where we house the most stress and in the body. It's the pelvis, and lo and they're linked. So just to point out some examples. I had a friend a client actually years ago who was chatting with me about her marriage and she said Well, early in our marriage, I didn't really talk to my husband about my feelings and she said he knew I was upset because my my jaw would lock and my lower jaw would shut out a little bit and he could see on my face I was hurt. And I was like well isn't that interesting tension in the jaw. Another example is people who grind their teeth from stress when they're sleeping. Again, this is playing out from tension in the jaw. Another example is how that's Stress can travel over to the lips, our lips can be plump, and full without all those little vertical lines because of increased blood flow. So when you're having sex when you're getting a massage, when you're laughing, sometimes you look in the mirror or see a picture of yourself and your lips look so nice and full. Because you're happy you have endorphins. But how many people have talked about seeing someone when they're angry, and their lips get thin, and all the little vertical lines show up and the lips get white, because the blood flow is diverting away from the lips. So there is so much going on with our physiology in this part of our body, that I just think if people can start to realize how common it shows up in their lives, and even looking at the people close to them, they can begin to appreciate that once they accept this is directly linked to their pelvis, this has a big impact on birth.
Right, exactly. And I love that explanation there. And it moves on so perfectly to you know, when you're birthing your baby, and this whole, you know this whole thing, or we believe that we really have to forcefully push our baby out. And I get so angry because I just still can't believe in this day and age, we are expecting women to hold their breath and reduce that oxygen that airflow to themselves to their baby, and forcefully pushing down. When there is really no need. There is really no need to do that. And there is better ways of helping and aiding the body and eating the uterus into birthing a baby. Even if you know your body does need that help. There are better ways to do it rather than that that forcefulness and it is literally just initiating that relax and drop of the jaw and the floppy face will be funny in that instant. And I mean look at the difference that can make just from doing that small little thing, which is it has this massive impact on birthing our baby on how we birth our baby on whether interventions are involved on you know how you know the damage to our perineum is a game changer when it comes to birth.
It's life changing, birth changing. Game Changer. Absolutely. You talk a lot about using a comb and labor. And we are really curious to hear your technique with the comb. We've certainly heard of using the the the comb for pain management. But you also talked about it as a way to release tension in the face. So can you share with us your comb techniques?
Yeah, sure. So the comb is such a great tool as part of the gateway control theory. You know, the brain can't concentrate on so many sensations at the same time. But also that certain pressure point helps to release really feel good hormones in our brain, it really helps to put us into a state of calm and you'll be from a squeezing your hand like this. And you can still keep your face you know, very relaxed your jaw, very relaxing your shoulders relax. But working with them and having them together is such a beautiful way to manage those surges and just take the edge off if they are feeling a little overwhelming for you. Using it in preparation for birth for your floppy face toppy funny is actually turning comb the other way. So imagine not the spiky bit we don't want to be putting that in our face. But the round bit of the comb or the straight bit of the comb, whatever that looks like I'm actually using it to roll down the face like this. And you really notice it's so bizarre. You'll really notice almost like knots in your jaw you know when you go for a massage right? And you can you know there's a knot and you're like, oh please, can you get that knot and you know, the massage, you know, the the lady giving the muscles the therapist is they're really getting this knot out. You will notice the same in your masseter muscles here in your jaw. Doing this exercise for five minutes or five minutes daily with your code, being able to just roll it down or face helping to release the muscle helping to just release any knots any tension. One allows us to recognize that tension and really sad draw. And secondly, help us to really relax their muscles and get them just prepared and ready for labor.
So when you when you're working with a client and she's using the comb throughout the labor process, are you having her squeeze the comb just through each contraction? How can you give us a little bit more detail on that part of the process?
Yeah, of course. So, yeah, the comb. Obviously in between contractions we want to be taking that time to rest to recuperate. So it is initially just for contractions itself. Especially you know, when you get to the peak of the contraction, some people they like to use it throughout the whole contraction they they like to be there and they like to hold on to it and it's almost becomes a concrete block. Get almost for some people just to be able to hold on to something, it gives them a sense of comfort, as well as something that's really helping take their mind off, you know what is happening in the body. But most of the time, it's just the use of contractions just to manage those sensations, and allow ourselves to really focus.
I think the focus is a big part of that for sure. Because there's so many techniques that that work as well. And they have their own little unique spin like the cold washcloth on the forehead, which I personally loved so much, or effleurage, when you're pouring water over a water birthing woman's shoulders, anything that just allows us to divert the mind a little bit and focus on something else can be really powerful focus is just another thing that I think so many humans live their whole lives and don't even scratch the surface of recognizing what they can accomplish by by learning how to focus, which is a key benefit of meditation of any kind, but I think it's all tied together.
Tell us about the Kiko technique.
So Kiko which stands for knees in carves out is all about the biomechanics of the pelvis. And I know you've, you've touched on these sort of spirit positionings before, it's about really understanding about opening the space in the pelvis. So we think that opening our legs, having them very wide one where, you know, in the latest stages of labor, when we're getting ready to birth, our baby, open those legs as wide as possible that we are helping to create the space for our baby to be born, which in fact, is the complete opposite to what we are actually doing. I always say and I just want to say before I continue is that whatever instinctively feels right for you at that time is always the most important thing. So whatever feels good for you in your body instinctively at the time you're giving birth will always be the most the best possible position that you can be in. However, we already see instinctively women going into this Kiko position we see animals going, you know, going into this Kiko position and wanting to bring their knees in and this is what happens when you do that. As you bring your knees in. You are actually creating more space in the pelvic outlet. So as we are in later stages of labor, and we are getting to the point where a bit we are birthing a baby, we will wants to open up the pelvic outlet and create space for our baby to turn and be born. But a lot of people try and still use this technique or really want to instinctively go into this technique and are told, No, this is absolutely you know, they shouldn't be doing this and then their legs are forced open.
It's really quite instinctual. But it's counterintuitive. Logically now, because we've watched women give birth with their legs open, and the legs are opened purely for the sake of the provider, and not for the woman. Although there are times in labor, where legs open can sometimes help open that pelvic inlet, not the outlet. But most of the time, women instinctively go into hands and knees or kneeling positions to get out of those positions automatically do this automatically do knees and calves out.
Exactly. And, and even if it's not, you know, this, it doesn't have to be this full on action. Even just bringing bringing, yeah, exactly the knees and the ankles parallel, this is so natural and bringing your feet just in just slightly. That is that is the smallest thing to change. Yet, it makes the biggest change to that pelvic outlet. And it doesn't need to be extreme,
I can tell you that from my own birth experiences. In early as the baby is descending was, you know, reaching full dilation, that part of labor, every time I have a contraction, I want to squat and open, I want to open my legs wide. That's what helps me feel like the contraction is most productive. And then when it's time to push especially late in the pushing stage, I'm down on my hands and knees and or kneeling always just was intuitive for me. And that's immediately turning the knees slightly in in the in the feet and calves slightly out. And like you said, it does not have to be dramatic, we don't want to get uncomfortable. We don't want to force ourselves into this position. We don't want it to feel awkward, you want it to feel intuitive. And just those subtle shifts can make all the difference. But if you're forced into being on your back in bed with your legs up in the stirrups, I mean that is working so against where you need to be when it's time for the baby to actually be born. And that, again purely for the sake of convenience for whoever's delivering your baby.
And we just have to appreciate how many times women are naturally doing things. And the provider in the room who has never studied physiologic birth is telling them not to like a provider saying hold your breath and push mean that's like the fast route to fetal distress or be on your back when you're giving birth or god forbid, with your legs up in stirrups. And this is another example of something where they might say, do this with your legs? Well, they haven't actually studied physiologic birth,
we should also just touch on the fact that this is why sometimes pain medication and labor while it has its place can interfere with this process. So if we're really truly looking for physiologic birth, and we want to get all these little intuitive hits and the communication that we get from our baby to our body and our body to our baby, pain management can interfere not only can interfere with that communication system, but it can severely restrict your positioning.
Right, exactly. And, you know, I get this question a lot actually, what if I have an epidural? Like, what then what what does Kiko mean then, because you're not going to get your right you're not, you're blocking the signals we are blocking, you know, the communication that's going on. So, you know, in that instance, even if you are restricted to a bed for whatever reason, that may be based on hopefully informed choice, then the always that you can still implement Kiko by turning on your side, using a peanut ball, you know, or, or sitting in a more upright positioning and just bring your knees in slightly, we just want to be able to get into a position where we, we know maybe that that'd be helpful.
And unfortunately, that discussion isn't usually had when we're talking about informed consent around getting a narcotic, getting an epidural, being induced, all of these things that lead us to, you know, needing pain medication, understandably, in labor, or, or maybe a woman just wants it and that's fine. As long as she's understanding and being informed of how it may impact her labor.
Right. And most of the time, you know, let's be honest, most of the of the time when we are going into labor and we are we are opting you know, for for this pain relief, you know, a lot of that is contributed to the fact that there is this fear and there is this fight against the body and by doing that we are creating, just suffering really uncomfortable like not enjoyable experience of course we're going to want some really strong relief from that sometimes people can have such long hard Labor's yet they'll have some kind of pain relief then all of a sudden they're literally within a short period of time fully dilated and and having their baby because their body has been actually able to relax for a moment, you know,
that does happen. Let's talk about what partying through labor means this is your term that you you've created. So what do you mean by Yeah, so partying, partying through labor is a term I like to use for the active stages of labor. So this is the time to celebrate you are in active labor, you are having your regular contractions, you know what's going on. And this is, you know, such a wonderful time to get the music on, dance around and really move and sway with your, with your contractions with your surges and have a dance with your baby. Like, this is so beneficial in so many ways. For labor, first of all, you know, we are upright, we are mobile, we are active, we are moving, we are working with our body. But secondly, things like swaying, swirling around and sort of doing this swirling movement is absolutely just beautiful for helping your baby come down into the pelvis is almost like, you know, there's you know, this is this is an ancient thing, you know, they've been talking about this that for a long, long time, right? But you know, this, this swirling motion is incredible for helping baby and moving baby. Not only that, when we are when we are listening to tracks that make us feel good music, you know, that dancing type of music that we can move to we are increasing our better endorphins, we are increasing our oxytocin levels, we are aiding ourselves in a more manageable, enjoyable experience in those those early stages. And what better way to really experience labor in a way where we can, you know, sort of create this celebratory environment. And when we do start to really go into the deepest stages of labor when we're going within ourselves. This is when we want to turn our our sort of party dance into a really nice slow dance, you know, really change our music change our playlist is something that makes us feel really relaxed, calm, emotionally connected to and this is the time to really go within ourselves focus and, and have this really internal dance then with our baby leading up to to birth.
That story reminds me or that explanation reminds me of one of the most amazing bursts I ever attended. As a midwifery student. It was in the hospital. And I wasn't there for the entire thing. This woman was already in labor, but I went into her room to check on her. And she was literally on top of the hospital bed, walking and dancing and moving around the hospital bed and she would get down and she would go around the floor and then she would get back up on the bed and she was doing like this. Like like she was at a dance party like it was you know, music in the room and moving and dancing and up on the bed and down the bed and around the room. And she had her baby like 30 minutes later than everybody nobody would even go in the room because everybody was a little too intimidated by what she was doing and like
I want to make sure everyone also knows that Elena Tonetti Vladimirova has done fantastic work on this. She calls it spiraling. And her documentary is called birth as we know it, it is spectacular. You see women birthing in the Black Sea walking into the Black Sea to give birth at our birth camps. That's what they did. They prepared all summer and they gave birth in the Black Sea they'd walk in and as she said in the movie, they come back out with their babies in their arms. And the first birth in that film shows a woman having a posterior baby in the water with the help of another woman or two and her husband it's so beautiful but she does stop for some education in the middle of the documentary and one important segment is spiraling and she says this is the very motion of the entire universe. And I start to see it from the spiritual and she says when you spiral you're of course it's good for the baby and endorphins and the baby's positioning. But she's saying like this is for the woman who's so in touch with what's happening within her body at this small level in the realm of the universe. It's like you're taking on that exact motion so that's like her big thing. It's it's I'm happy you're talking about it because I don't hear a lot of people talking about that.
You know what I'm so glad you touched on that that spiritual side of it because when we are they use the the use this movement in you as well. And it's all about creating this, you know, this energy that we have in our, in our, in our pelvis, you know there's this special energy we have in our pelvis this transformative, you know motion that's happening and doing that as a daily exercise sitting there and actually moving your body in this spiral motions can really help obviously with flexibility, it makes you feel really connected to your baby. It really feel it makes you feel connected to your body. And yeah, spiraling I haven't actually seen that film myself. I need to watch that.
On our podcast, by the way, I want to mention that and it's an it is a very special, unique episode. That's like no other episode. Yeah, because she's just so spiritual. She's just, you know, you just sit back and listen to her and your mind is just kind of blown the whole time. So make sure you look that up, I was around spring or summer I think of 2020.
That brings us to how birth can be orgasmic. Again, here we are, I think about the opposites, birth as being the most intense and potentially uncomfortable moment of your life and or guests being the most beautiful, exciting, amazing moment. One in the same.
Right? You know, it's it's such a simple thing. Yet, it's people find it really difficult sometimes to understand that concept, because it seems, in our society that's so far apart. Some people really recoil at that. And they're like, oh, no, I can't think of anything worse. But actually, we know that, you know, intimacy, orgasms, that social interaction, you know, all releases this beautiful hormone, oxytocin, which is the exact same hormone, which is driving our whole labor, when we are when we are, when we have that oxytocin flowing, when we are aroused, our vagina on the fold opens up by almost two centimeters for some people. So already, we have this blood flow, and we have this sort of beautiful sort of opening of the vagina, you know, from the oxytocin that's flowing through our system, if we can understand that, and implement that into our labor and into our birthing experience. You know, for some people, we don't even have to, you know, implement any self pleasure or you know, because spiritually we can go there. But I do talk about, you know, introducing the touch, you know, and the self pleasure, they did a study on actually self pleasure during labor. And the difference in the feeling of pain, the sort of pain levels, made such a massive difference. That's because of this beautiful oxytocin. And this whole like being in touch and in tune with your body and actually leaning into it, rather than, than fighting against it, you know, leaning into and just allowing yourself to be this sexual, beautiful spiritual creature that we that we are, you know, and bringing that into the birth space. I mean, even in in, you know, when you're birthing your baby, we know that when you know, when the baby passes through that vaginal canal, that some people experience orgasms at this time. This is oxytocin, this is this, this is this beautiful, you know, intimate hormone. And it's a natural thing. It's such a natural thing.
And even if it's not physically orgasmic, if you don't physically feel that, that climax, the cocktail of hormones, that's happening in the body with the endorphin ecstasy tokens and the adrenaline and all of it is it that experience emotionally and mentally is orgasmic it's ecstatic. Right? That is the experience.
And that's a perfect point. An orgasmic birth doesn't have to be physical. Because when you're reaching these these different realms, and you've got all these beautiful, beautiful cocktail, it's it can be aesthetic, completely aesthetic and you can feel it like in your body you know just completely taking over and rushing over your body it's it's I mean what a beautiful thing to be able to experience in such a you know, life changing event.
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