#329 | Doula Confessions: Bearing Witness to Birth and Broken Systems

I'm Cynthia Overgard, owner of HypnoBirthing of Connecticut, childbirth advocate and postpartum support specialist. And I'm Trisha Ludwig, certified nurse midwife and international board certified lactation consultant. And this is the Down To Birth Podcast. Childbirth is something we're made to do. But how do we have our safest and most satisfying experience in today's medical culture? Let's dispel the myths and get down to birth.

Let's talk about doulas. Doulas are very important people. You know, this is why I want to talk about doula. Though, I think that over the years, I have had so many of my own clients who had these beautiful births and got so touched by birth and affected by birth, as so many women do when they have positive experiences that they went on to become doula, and I've witnessed over the years about a 50% turnover rate, like about 50% of them got all excited, did their training, started attending births, and very quickly realized they weren't cut out for the work. And I am a strong believer that only some women are cut out for doula work. I think it is such difficult work, so much more difficult than I think anyone realizes. I once heard somewhere that the average lifespan of a midwife is five years, the average career span, not lifespan. Oh, I meant like midwife lifespan.

I guess this is the last good thing. Good thing. It's not gonna bring our podcast career span. Okay, so that's hilarious that you said that. But, okay, so, but let me, let me, let me. Same vein is what I'm saying. I don't think it's the same thing, no. Why? No, and here's why. Okay, they both have extraordinarily difficult lifestyles. I have no idea how they do it. They don't know when they're getting called by their clients. They don't know how long they'll be at the birth. That's all similar. There's a huge difference, though, between doula and midwives as far as the difficulty of their work, whereas midwives bear the responsibility for the birth outcome, as any doctor does at a birth, which is an enormous responsibility to bear. They get to be in charge of the care. A doula goes into the work with the same let's assume love and care and concern for a woman and her baby and the family's birth outcome, but she has no control over how the provider is going to attend to the woman. And when doula start attending births in hospitals, and they see, in many cases, the abuses that take place, it is an impossibly frustrating, painful experience for them. And I've had doula friends call me sobbing after births, like feeling traumatized themselves, in a sense. And I think that the best doula are the ones who understand how to create a boundary, honestly and just Yes, recognize, perhaps some places where they're not willing to work, but to create a boundary and recognize this isn't their birth and they're not re experiencing birth over and over. This is their clients journey, and their scope is very limited, and I think that's the very difficult part of the work. So for this episode, we asked on our Instagram page, doula who wanted to call in and just share some things they've witnessed and experienced at hospitals. So we have a bunch of those who want to share, but I think not everyone is cut out for it. I it would be very frustrating for me to be ultimately powerless when I wanted to have more influence over a birth, and a midwife does have that influence in most cases.

Yeah, I think doula work is really specific, like a certain it is certainly not for everyone. You really do. Obviously have to have a passion for birth. You really have to be a nurturing type of person. I mean, any job in the world is not for anyone. I could never be an engineer, my God, would be terrible at that.

But this is a particularly emotional work. I mean, this work attracts women who care deeply and want to help make the world a better place, and to go and ultimately feel their hands are tied, and to witness certain things, I just, it's just very difficult. And I have all the respect in the world for the doulas who can do it, and I have the all the respect in the world for the doula who do it for a while and realize they just, they can't. It's too demoralizing for them. They ultimately can't change the system, and they can influence a woman's life tremendously. They can change birth outcomes. But there are times they just hit a wall and have to witness things they really never cared to witness. And when it's about a client they care deeply about, it's it's very painful. But anyway, we just said, Hey, call in with some of your stories. Let's, uh, let's listen to what they wanted to share.

My name is Colleen. I'm a birth doula in Buffalo, New York, and the craziest thing I've experienced as a birth doula is I was supporting a couple who had no family in town. The mother developed preeclampsia around 28 weeks, pretty severely. They had to do an emergency C section. The couple had asked me to come in and sit with them in the hospital while they waited to go into the C section, the doctor walked in, took one, looked at me and looked at the couple, and said, This is not a doula situation. I don't know why she's here. It's not up to the doctor. What is a doula situation and what the doula is there to support them?

It's the mother's support person.

It's not the doctor. This OB is obviously thinking that, you know, the doula is purely an assistant in the birth to do the things that the midwife or the doctor isn't available to do, like massage and get her things and comfort her and talk to her and be there and be present.

The doula role in pregnancy and birth is to support the mother in whatever way she needs, emotionally.

Oh, yeah, they're just as important during a C section as any other birth. It also was a good example of the lack of respect some or the contempt some doctors have toward doula, to talk about her in front of her and say she I don't know why she's here. This isn't a doula situation. It's just so apparent that doctors are threatened by an empowered woman serving as support in the room. I don't know why they find it threatening, but it's very clear to me that they only have that approach because they're threatened by it. Well, because a doula questions them. A doula, a doula questions their system. It, you know, it makes them have to veer from the easiest path. The doula helps inform the mother and empower the mother, and then the mother wants to do things differently than the policy or the system, and that makes their job harder, and it's a witness to the birth, which is also, I guess, yeah, threatening to some doctors, right? The doctor might end up on social media saying something that they didn't mean to say or meant to say, and didn't mean for the world to see. All right, let's play the let's play the next one.

Hi. My name is Megan rezuka. I am the owner of my school faces doula support in Maryland, in Baltimore, Maryland. I am based and I just wanted to share a story with you. I have so many, but one that sticks out in my mind is witnessing the abuse and the trauma that happens at a certain hospital here that patients keep going back to, and I have seen so many awful things there that I have refused to go back there as a doula. For example, you know, placing fingers in the client's vagina as she's pushing, and then being told that I can't film The birth. There's a policy, a hospital policy going on. And I truly think that the hospital policy is that they do not want to get caught invading women's privacy or their bodies. So one particular instance that I witnessed was this doctor was doing that to my client. And I said to her, you know, do you want this doctor doing that to you, and he basically shushed me and told me that it's not my place to advocate for my clients. And my client got very uncomfortable, and I, you know, again, asked her, you know, do you want this happening? And she said no, and she immediately closed her legs as she was pushing, where the doctor could not get in there, and I could see the frustration on his face, but I did not care, because I know what my client and I have discussed. It's the control and the power that these doctors feel like they have to have over these women who are birthing that makes me want to do my job even more well. That's a great example of what I was just referencing about, you know, the disrupting the provider's role, telling empowering the mother to say something that she doesn't want, and changing what the doctor is doing.

So, yeah, I mean, this is why doctors don't always want doula some practices forbid doulas. You can't be part of their practice. You can't have a doula if you're part of their practice.

That's a real thing. Yeah, I've heard of that. It's, I think it's a I think when it's in our area, here in Connecticut, they all quote, allow doula I think because they wouldn't dare be the hospital that doesn't I just think it. I think it's cultural. There are areas where VBAC isn't supported. There are areas where doulas are not supported. I am sure it is unbelievably irritating to a doctor to have a non medical professional show up in the room and start laying down the law and empowering a woman, but the dot that doctor just said it directly himself. He said, she's not here to empower you. Wasn't that the line something like that, like share her job isn't to him, to advocate for you, to advocate for you. That's that's exactly what a doula can be hired to do, among other things. All right, so this next one is from.

Colleen, who I know well in Connecticut. She's, she has been the doula for about 250 of my own clients. So I know her very well over many years. And she gives a few quick examples, but I have, I have my own details to add to the first example she gives. So let's listen to her. Her kick it off. Hello. This is Colleen from beautiful birth and beyond, which is located in Connecticut. I've been a doula 12 years, and unfortunately, have some crazy stories.

What comes to mind, first and foremost is this was earlier on in my career. Client was unmedicated, laboring. Dutifully. She was probably eight to nine centimeters at the time. She did not want the saline lock part of the IV, the part that goes in the arm and stays in the arm. She didn't need it. She was low risk, so there's no reason for it. So she was declining. The nurse kept bugging her, and then finally the OB comes in and really started harassing her, and in the end, told her, if you don't let me put in this saline lock, you can go birth your baby out in the parking lot. So yeah, that didn't go over very well.

She was reported and then came in and profusely apologized the next day. Okay, you know, I'm a storyteller. I've got to tell this story. So that was Colleen succinct version of what happened. But there's a lot more to that story, and I just have to tell you, and I played a role in that story. So this was a story that I tell my own clients once in a while, if this topic comes up. So what happened was this lovely, young, first time mom. Her name was Annette. She was in there. She was laboring beautifully. She was eight centimeters. I know the hospital. I know the doctor's name. It was a female obstetrician, and they were pressuring her, As Colleen said, relentlessly for the sailing lock. She very politely, gently. She was a mild mannered woman that they thought they could push around, I guess. And they, they did, sort of push her too far. They told her to get it. She declined. And she said things like, Do I have to like, I'm really feeling fine the way I am. They they pushed her. The doctor came in, and this is the quote, and I often don't share this part because it's incredibly distressing and upsetting, but I'm going to tell the whole story. The doctor came in and said, first of all, she said, Look, I've seen a lot of babies die, and I've seen a lot of moms die, and I would hate for that to happen to you. Can you believe that over a saline, I can believe it, not even an IV attached to nothing, nothing hooked up, just the catheter in her. And then she said. So she played good cop, bad cop, in a sense, herself, she's she said to her, also, your eight centimeters, you can go have your baby in the parking lot if you don't do what I say. So she acted all caring for one second. That was a completely obviously manipulative way to pretend to be caring by talking about anyone dying. I also want to say to that doctor, really, you've seen a lot of them die on your watch. What are you doing wrong? Really? Is that really true? A lot of them are dying in your care. Do you like Do you even realize what you're saying about yourself? Anyway, she did get coerced, and she did get the catheter. Had her baby, had a beautiful birth, they called me from the hospital room happy about their birth. Told me the story. I was absolutely outraged at the comment the doctor made and the threat to kick her out, so I sought their permission to call the hospital president, and they gave me permission. I called the hospital president, of course, I didn't reach him. I reached the voicemail of his assistant. That's the number that was listed online, and this is the voicemail for did it, and she said the president's name. I left a message saying, Oh, hi. This is Cynthia Overgard. I'm the owner of HypnoBirthing of Connecticut in Westport. We have many mutual clients. Over the years, we've had hundreds of mutual clients. And you have a mom in the hospital right now. Her name is this, she was this doctor's patient, and this just happened. You and I both know that would be unlawful for her to actually kick the client out. She has the right to be there no matter what. And I just want to know just from you, is this something you support? Is this something I should expect for my clients to be experienced at this hospital? Or would you say this was an unusual, an unusual event, because you and I both know that was unlawful. I basically said that, and I gave him my number and asked him to call me back. Of course, I was certain he wouldn't call me back, but a most unbelievable thing happened, and Colleen just said the doctor apologized profusely. This is actually what happened the next day. Was a Saturday. The couple was in their room with their baby. The doctor walked in with her pre teen age daughter. They were both elegantly dressed as if to go somewhere. So it took the couple a second to even realize this was the doctor.

She had her handbag over her shoulder. She was with her daughter. She was dressed in high heels and a nice dress. She walked in in front of her own daughter, got down on her knees, on her knees, took the mother's hand and said, Please forgive me. I was totally out of line. I never would have kicked you out of the hospital. We're not allowed to do that. I never should have said that to you. Please forgive me. Please forgive me. So you know the President wasn't going to call me back, but he called her up and said, you get your ass in there right now and make this right. Because not only does the couple know what you did was unlawful, but a third party in the industry knows. So that was a really incredible story. I'll never forget.

Powerful for sure, to play the devil's advocate for a moment. Obviously, the doctor acted really inappropriately. That doctor has probably seen a mother die in birth from some type of emergency where, you know, instant medication or fluids may have saved her life. It does happen. It's really uncommon, really uncommon, but this is why providers can behave that way and be that way, and that's her own trauma to process and deal with, and it is never appropriate. It is always an issue of informed consent. I have a different perspective on this. I personally would bet the doctor hasn't seen a woman die in labor. For this reason, I've read a lot of controversy around hep block. First of all, we're not even talking fluids. We are talking only a catheter. Yeah, but the the reason for that is that in an emergency, I know you, the reason you're a sad the act you have the access if you you often can't get an IV in a woman who is crashing from something like help syndrome. I just happened to have a different guess as to what was going on here. I think this was total control. The woman was completely in control. As a first time mom, she was relaxed. She was obviously doing well. She was very close to birthing her baby. The nurse tried first and went and complained to the doctor. You know, the nurses and doctors are close. They have each other's backs, so the doctor went in there and made it happen. I this was the nurse who started off pushing the woman. I just, I personally don't believe the doctor had her own trauma to process. I think it's what if she did all this is why I'm saying. I'm playing the devil's advocate. I know in some cases you wish that woman had a hep block so you could get an IV. That's all I'm saying. It comes down to informed consent, the it's the woman's choice, and how the doctor behaved in what she said to her is completely inappropriate, totally unacceptable. Obviously, you know, she apologized for it, even the fact that she said, I've seen a lot of moms and a lot of babies die. Sounds inauthentic to me. It's not like she said, Look, I know, I know that. It doesn't seem you need this. I have seen a mother in your situation. I just, I don't, I don't believe it, and I've there's so much controversy around IVs to begin with, around fluids and labor anyway. I guess the point is that anyone can agree on is she's not allowed to kick her out of the hospital. She wasn't allowed to emotionally coerce and manipulate her, and the woman had a right to refuse. She had a right to say no, no matter what 100% she did, 100% in what this doctor did goes clearly against the acogs policy on coercion. Those were coercive, manipulative statements, and that is never okay. I'm just saying it comes from it probably it may not come from all ego. It may come from having had a traumatic experience, but that is her issue to process and deal with. What I really wish I knew is what the President said to that doctor.

I mean, he, he said that very serious threat to her, for her to go in on her knees on her night off, he said something very forceful to her. And I wish I knew exactly what that was, because that's, that's, I just think it's a, yeah, okay. It's an incredible story that the doctor did, that it is and, yeah, it's very powerful. Okay, let's continue with hearing what, what else Colleen wanted to contribute. Another one that comes to mind is, client wanted delayed cord clamping. The OB was getting ready to clamp the cord, and it had only been around 30 seconds. So I mentioned, oh, let's, you know, wait and let baby get all of his blood. And he yelled at me, babies in the United States don't need all their blood. This isn't Kenya.

Okay? What? What does that even mean? Isn't Kenya? That basically mean, I don't I'm what I mean that it's a This isn't Third World. This isn't we're civilized like malnutrition is not an issue. What that? That makes no sense. It makes no sense. You leave the court intact because the baby gets the blood that belongs to their body. Yeah.

Okay? And stem cells. You don't get stem cells through external nutrition.

That's right, that's a crazy comment, right? T cells. I mean, you have T cells in there that the baby needs Absolutely. That's about a third of the baby's blood volume at birth. That's not in the baby. It's just, it's, it shouldn't be a controversy anymore. It's crazy. I've heard so many crazy chord stories, but All right, let's see the last thing she contributed. Then we'll hear the other doula stories as well. After this one, had an OB tell me that membranes cannot release in the tub, that it was impossible. And I was like, Okay, well, I guess I have witnessed the impossible many times over then. And then had another OB for delayed cord clamping, say that he had to hold the baby down below the placenta, otherwise the blood was going to run from the baby back into the placenta. And I was like, Okay, I don't think that is how that works. So anyways, those are the few stories that I had that came to mind. This thing about the cord blood flowing. I've done the research on this, and it is so upsetting to me that this has been so effective at manipulating women into doing doing these weird maneuvers with the baby, or not having the baby get all the blood. So a lancet study was done, and if I'm recalling correctly, I think it was in 2014 that showed totally conclusively, the blood will pump with ease against gravity as blood flows all throughout your body against gravity with ease, and the blood goes straight into the baby's body, through the Baby's liver. It can't just flow back. It's so ridiculous that they act like it's just going into some empty bucket, and it can flow back and forth. It the blood flow via the cord from the placenta, has nothing to do with gravity, right? Gravity is a non issue. It's not a factor in it at all. So it makes no sense, and it's still, it's still a widely held belief. It really is still a widely held belief. So yeah, and then the comment about water, your bag of water can't release in the water. I know they know nothing about water birth. This is why Barbara is still traveling the world educating doctors about water birthing. They don't know about water birthing.

But back to the the blood flow. This is such an important comment and such an important misbelief out there, because babies need to come out of women and go on their stomachs. The babies need to go skin to skin, directly on the mom. And for all these millions of women who are somehow birthing either on their backs or even in the semi reclining position, if they're in a bed, the natural position of any woman is, even if she bursts on her hands and knees, she's going to want to roll over onto her back and hold her baby in her arms against her. And this argument that the blood can't flow that way is to then indicate the baby can't go on the mom, which is absolutely criminal. I mean, the baby must go on the mom and be held by her right after the baby comes out. Well, for the longest time, didn't matter, because the baby would be born and they would immediately cut the cord. So nobody cared anyway, whether which, what direction the blood was flowing. But any of us who have ever seen a physiologic birth and had our own physiologic birth and have immediately lifted our babies to our chest in an upright position, know, with solid 100% proof that there is no backflow into draining blood from the baby back into the placenta. I mean, it's just an absolutely ridiculous thought nature would never be so foolish.

Hi, Trisha and Cynthia. This is Lauren. I am a doula here in Knoxville, Tennessee.

I had an experience this last week that definitely struck me as interesting. I had a couple, a young couple who was about 40 weeks, and they were told that they had only a few days to induce. No other options. They got to that last day that their appointment was scheduled for the induction, and they were supposed to call about an hour before the induction. So they called, and in that phone call, they said that the mama was already starting to cramp, and they felt like early labor was beginning, and the hospital demanded that they still come in, and the threat that they gave the couple was, if you don't come in, we will still charge you for an ER bill and an induction bill.

And so the couple was kind of scared into coming in, even though her body was going into labor. So found that very interesting. Wanted to share with you guys.

Does that not just say it all.

Does that not say it all. They wanted her to come in to be induced. She went into labor spontaneously. What a blessing. And they said, you urgently need to come in to be induced. And if not, we're billing you for the induction anyway. And an ER visit. I don't understand where to.

The ER visit come from, that doesn't even I guess, because, because if she went into labor spontaneously, on her own and entered the hospital on her own timing, it would technically be through the ER, but if she went in for an induction, it would be for an appointment. I'm guessing. I don't know. I can't it doesn't make any sense. I mean, if you're if you're in labor, you go into labor and delivery. No, it doesn't make any sense. And this is why our non American listenership, I think it's 17% of listeners are not in the United States. Their jaws must drop when they hear this stuff. They must just be like, what? But this is the weird sort of thing that happens when you have corporations full on legitimate conglomerates running our health care, profits are a goal. It doesn't mean it's the only goal. I'm sure giving the best possible care is also a goal, but profits are a goal which is not a goal for your local public school or your local firehouse that is just out to educate and or save people.

Let's not be too naive on that one, profits are at the top of the list. These are businesses. Birth is a business. It is a business. And yes, within that business there are caring, good providers who care deeply about your experience and your birth, but they are dictated by higher ups who run a business, and they care about the business of birth and making money, it's the top priority. Did I ever tell you that I had a couple years ago who started taking my class, and about halfway through the course, they came one week and they said, Cynthia, we have a we have a crisis. Our doctor, who we're really happy with and who attends births at such and such hospital, was kicked out of the hospital, and he was told it's for not bringing in enough revenue. So we still have a doctor. He still has his license, but he literally has nowhere to show up to attend my birth. Do you believe that story? Yes. I mean, I, I knew it was a true story for my couple, but I want to know if that's surprising to you or it was shocking to me. Not. No. I mean, it's just rights at the hospital. Yeah, providers have to maintain their hospital privileges, and they can have all kinds of various reasons that they don't get them or they're not renewed. And the hospital can only have so many practice, only have so many practices with privileges at the hospital. So if you're not a money making practice, sorry, find somewhere else to go. I totally believe that.

Hi, I was calling to share a story of something insane that I've seen as a doula, I've only attended one birth. Currently, it was the one and only Hospital where I will ever attend. But the OB came in yelling and screaming and was basically pulling this baby out of this woman and told her, Well, first I saw her physically Trisha rep her perineum, and then when it didn't work, she told her that she wasn't hearing and she needed her in order for the baby to be born, and so she just cut an episiotomy. Told her, is absolutely necessary, and I will never attend another hospital birth, because it was so disgusting. Perfect example of a doula who loses all that spark she had, she now says I'll never attend another hospital birth, and that's where we need doula the most the doctor physically tried tearing the perineum. Abuse, you know, maybe getting the mother up on her hands and knees, maybe flipping her over, would have gotten that baby out. There are so few scenarios when scissors are the answer, while the doctor tried to manually tear the woman. That's just another level of just. That's just like, did she just want something to suit her later? Did she just want busy work after the birth? Why would any don't they understand here I am putting myself in the provider's shoes again, thinking, you know, this doctor maybe was in a maybe there was imminent danger to this baby, and the doctor wanted to do anything possible to get this baby born quickly. Maybe the baby's heart rate was in the 50s. Trisha, you're listen. I really appreciate this. This. If that were the case, we have to trust that would have been part of the story. You also have to know these things just happened. There was a video that went viral years ago. It was, I'll never forget it. I must have watched it a few times, but there was a woman, a grandmother, let's say the woman's mom, was videotaping the birth. She spoke in broken English. I can't quite remember the accent she had, but that was the video. And there was a doctor. He also had a heavy accent. And the woman was saying, no, no, don't cut me. Please don't cut me. And the doctor was going, what are you going to do? What are you going to do? You're going to get something a little a baby's head this size, coming out of a hole this size. What are you going to do? And the mother was going, Doctor, you do what you need to do. You do it. And the mother totally betrayed her daughter. And the daughter was literally begging, no, no, please don't cut me. Please don't cut me.

That happens too. And I want to take No, I want to take this story at face value. I don't want to say that the baby's heart rate was 50, because I think this doula would be reasonable enough not to be so upset about it to never do a hospital birth again. But even if the baby's heart rate was in the 50s and this baby needed to be born. I'm just saying there are alternatives, and it is abusive to ever cut a woman's body without her permission, or to coerce her into believing that it is absolutely necessary. There are extremely rare scenarios where it is necessary. I'm not going to say an episiotomy is 100% never helpful. Agree, it is a very small percentage. So that's because I know these stories. It's happened to clients of mine. I hear you, and I just said to my class, because I'm in the middle of teaching a class right now, and I just said, what you just said. I said, in my opinion, episiotomies are virtually never necessary. But that's not to say never. Every midwife that I respect very much, and I've asked so many midwives throughout the years who I respect. How many episiotomies have you done? It's been approximately one to two per 1000 births with the midwives that I know and respect the most. It's so it's not never, but it is almost never. So I always say to my couples, like, I can't say whether you might need one, but this is for you to determine with your provider, and you need to know about it and give consent. Yeah, I think you asked me recently on the podcast, when, when would you do an episiotomy? And the only scenario where I could think that an episiotomy might be the next best step is if you are, if the next step is literally going to surgery and cut, you know, doing a C section to get the baby out. If you were in that type of situation, I think that was in our Patreon event preventing vaginal tearing that yes, it was yes, yeah. So if you guys want to see it, get on over to Patreon. All right, let's play the next one. Hi, Cynthia and Trisha. My name is Danielle, and I'm a doula, and I wanted to share about a birth story that I witnessed a few years ago. So my client was birthing in a hospital with an OB, and at this birth, I overheard one of the craziest things I've ever heard providers say when the mother requested delayed cord clamping, the OB responded that she could only delay the cord clamping for 60 seconds, and that anything beyond 60 seconds would risk the baby getting too much blood could overwhelm the baby's heart and potentially cause cardiac arrest. I was pretty floored by this comment, and I will never forget it. However, this doctor almost redeemed herself when she supported my client through eight and a half hours of pushing.

I've never seen or heard of an OB supporting someone through through this long of a pushing stage before, not even close. Honestly, the upper limit seems to be like three or four hours. For most doctors, this mom was pushing, unmedicated and in a variety of positions, had very good movement. It was just a long pushing stage. Mike might want to keep going, and did have a vaginal birth after eight and a half hours of pushing, which is longer than a full workday.

Have you seen or heard of doctors and hospitals supporting this long of a pushing stage? Or am I right in thinking this is quite unusual, unusual and incredible. Thanks for listening, and thanks for all you do. Okay, first we have to comment on the cardiac arrest thing with the baby getting all of his or her blood. Do you want to say anything about that, I have a story for you. When I was a new instructor, many, many years ago, I was teaching about delayed cord clamping, and one couple came back to class and had spoken to this about their doctor, and the doctor said this was the one where the doctor was just like, I'm sorry. Where are you getting this information from? And then they shared that they had done their research, etc, etc. And the doctor said, okay, you know, that's fine. That's fine if you want to do that, but if I determine that your baby gets too much blood, I'm going to have to bring it down to the NICU and drain a little excess blood out of your baby. And I just, when they shared that, I just said, that is, I can't imagine that that's true, because I know how nature works. But I went into this group, I was in with like, 2000 educators and doula and midwives and instructors, and they roared back, like, that, doctor should lose his license. I mean, drain excess blood out of the baby. Okay? So, well, yeah, so, so here we are, on one hand, saying that we're going to exsanguinate A baby if we leave the court intact too long, because the baby is going to the blood is going to drain out of the baby back into the placenta. On the other hand, we're saying they're going to get too much blood, and their heart's going to stop because their blood's going to be over, their body's going to be overflowing with blood. Ain't just so ridiculous.

List. I mean, come on, hundreds of years ago, we didn't have scissors, right? Even you even have scissors. I don't know when scissors were created. I've been wondering, I don't know why here, no, but we weren't babies. And mothers were staying connected for however length of time it took until the placenta was born. This is how birth was designed, scissors. Scissors were invented. I can't wait to share this.

Scissors were invented 1500 years before Christ. What?

Oh, my God, okay, and I didn't ask about knives, which, you know, had to come before scissors, that maybe we were cutting. However, we have to remind ourselves we have been giving birth for hundreds of 1000s to arguably, to the to the to about 3.2 million years. So it's still long before scissors, but let's see, what about that's impressive.

Humans have always been kind of remarkable in technology.

Knives are one of the oldest tools ever created by humans. They date back to oh my gosh, you are not going to believe what I'm about to tell you.

You ready for this? Knives safe back to 2.5 million years ago in the stone age. I do believe that that makes sense to me, because that would be like the first tool man would create, something to cut. But scissors are a whole nother mechanism, like much more complicated Paleolithic era, I believe that sharp rocks, sharp rocks, could have probably been considered knives.

But how do we even know that fossils, Oh, for sure, with knives. Yeah, anything with stone they can. That's one of the easier things, okay, but when was the first recorded episiotomy? When did they start using those sharp tools to cut women vaginally, and the first recorded episiotomy was in 1700 by an Irish physician, sir, fielding old, sir, sir. Fielding old. What year did you say? 1742 however, the practice did not become common until the 20th century. That's when it really got trendy and popular. Yes, sir. Fielding l describes the procedure in his book, A Treatise of Midwifery, and he suggested cutting the perineum to ease in cases of obstructed labor.

And then it became routine in the early 1900s it gained quote, popularity. It gained popularity amongst obese, not amongst women. What about cutting cords? What does it say about when people started cutting cords?

Who knew this was going to turn into a history lesson?

You mean like immediate cord clamping? Because do you mean cutting cords in general, after the baby got all the blood, or do you mean immediate cord clamping to prevent blood from getting into the baby? I would want to know both. Okay, early cord clamping began between the 1900s and the 1950s around the time hospital birth became popular.

Yes, no coincidence. No coincidence. Now, what about what about when does it say anything about when cords? When we started separating mother and baby via cutting the umbilical cord instead of waiting for the placenta to be born?

I'm gonna go with the stone ages again, but let's see.

Okay, okay. It says there's no exact date, sadly, but likely 10s of 1000s of years ago, possibly up to 200,000 years ago. Early humans likely observed that the cord dries up naturally and falls off eventually, but they may have begun cutting it shortly after the birth with sharp tools, the act of cutting may have developed for practical reasons to prevent infection or make it easier to move the baby. That's for sure, hand the baby to someone else. Ancient Egypt, 1500 BC, mentions midwifery practices likely involved cord cutting again long after the baby received all of the blood.

Hippocrates 400 BC, references tying and cutting the cord after birth. So two to 3000 years ago, the things women have seen through the years, through the millennia, well, so those were the stories we got from doula.

Great, very eye opening, very illuminating. I think I wonder how the listeners heard this. I wonder if they're surprised or if they're like, Yep, no surprise. I wonder how they hear it, because you and I are not terribly surprised by any of this. We've heard these stories over the years, but I wonder how you know that newly, first time pregnant mom.

Mom is hearing this, and if they're surprised, doula are very valuable, because they are our eyes and ears, an objective set of eyes and ears into the industry, and I think we can learn so much from them.

Not only that, but there is very solid evidence that suggests that having a doula at your birth dramatically decreases the risk of a C section birth and interventions, and dramatically increases the the rate of normal, spontaneous vaginal delivery, as it is termed an SVD and many other things, lower rates of postpartum depression, higher rates of breastfeeding success, many other satisfaction with birth? Yeah, there's so much good evidence to support having a doula. And women have had doulas by their side in birth since the beginning of time. They are the original birth keepers doula. Then the more practice the doula was, the more likely she was to be. Then come a midwife, like women have been supported by women in birth for ever, and it's interesting the role of the doula. I feel like it's always evolving, like doulas are practicing in different ways. I heard one doula recently say that she's she no longer believes that her role is to advocate for her client, and most doula see that as their primary role. So it's really interesting. I feel like there is a lot of variation in the role of the doula, and a lot of evolution in the role of the doula, but the one thing that we know for certain is that women need women in birth, and the doula fills that role, and it makes everything about the birth safer and better for both the mother and the baby.

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